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Thread: Trump talk

  1. #31
    Forum Regular Sam Black's Avatar
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  2. #32
    Administrator Clamato's Avatar
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    Carter and Nixon weren't very popular either. But one thing you couldn't take away from either . . . intelligence. Nixon was dead long before the Paris Accord ever came to be, but I am guessing he is infinitely more knowledgable than Trump on the subject. Unless Don's handlers were able to make a presentation with enough pictures and words smaller than five letters for him to follow along.

  3. #33
    Forum Regular GEman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful View Post
    Glad to see Germany and the rest of the free world being asked to finally put up their fair share. We U.S. tax payers shouldn't be paying for the world's defense and peace keeping. Suck it up Merkle.
    I can tell you are truly a deep thinker, Grateful. Sorry you will not see info below on Fox News.

    NATO Allies Can Spend More Money, More Wisely

    The 2 percent rule does not take into account whether nations provide what the alliance needs.

    --

    "But some kinds of military spending are better than others. Money for major training exercises, or transport planes and helicopters for airlift operations, is far more valuable than lots of spending on ill-equipped troops in glorified jobs programs.

    Spending on national defense is always going to reflect national priorities. That said, better coordination among member nations can bolster both their security and the alliance’s. A wealthy nation may want some shiny new fighter jets, but the collective defense may be better served by more prosaic equipment such as refueling tankers. To their credit, not only have the alliance’s newer members such as the Baltic States been paying up, they’ve been helpful in buying what NATO most needs."

  4. #34
    Forum All Star jombl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GEman View Post

    The 2 percent rule does not take into account whether nations provide what the alliance needs.

    The agreement that Obama struck with the member states of NATO calls for 2%. Nowhere in the agreement will you find an exception that allows one nation to claim their spending is somehow "better".


    But for those of you doing the math, that means that the majority of allies are still not hitting that 2 percent mark -- an obligation we agreed to in Wales. So we had a very candid conversation about this. There’s a recognition that given the range of threats that we face and the capabilities that we need, everybody has got to step up and everybody has got to do better.

    Barack Obama
    If you or someone you know have amended the agreement, feel free to share the details of how your alternate facts treaty works.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by jombl View Post
    If you or someone you know have amended the agreement, feel free to share the details of how your alternate facts treaty works.
    OK, how about using the actual agreement itself as the primary source?

    http://www.nato.int/cps/ic/natohq/of...xts_112964.htm

    Specifically, paragraph 14 calls for nations who are not hitting the 2% goal, should aim to be there by 2024. Let me check the calendar.

    14. We agree to reverse the trend of declining defence budgets, to make the most effective use of our funds and to further a more balanced sharing of costs and responsibilities. Our overall security and defence depend both on how much we spend and how we spend it. Increased investments should be directed towards meeting our capability priorities, and Allies also need to display the political will to provide required capabilities and deploy forces when they are needed. A strong defence industry across the Alliance, including a stronger defence industry in Europe and greater defence industrial cooperation within Europe and across the Atlantic, remains essential for delivering the required capabilities. NATO and EU efforts to strengthen defence capabilities are complementary. Taking current commitments into account, we are guided by the following considerations:

    Allies currently meeting the NATO guideline to spend a minimum of 2% of their Gross Domestic Product (GDP) on defence will aim to continue to do so. Likewise, Allies spending more than 20% of their defence budgets on major equipment, including related Research & Development, will continue to do so.

    Allies whose current proportion of GDP spent on defence is below this level will:
    * halt any decline in defence expenditure;
    * aim to increase defence expenditure in real terms as GDP grows;
    * aim to move towards the 2% guideline within a decade with a view to meeting their NATO Capability Targets and filling NATO's capability shortfalls.

  6. #36
    Forum All Star jombl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minnesoter View Post
    OK, how about using the actual agreement itself as the primary source?

    A quote from Barack Obama regarding an agreement he signed is not a credible source? Weird.

    And by the way, why even take issue with Obama at all? It was GEman who went completely off the rails with his fantasy interpretation of the agreement Obama negotiated with the NATO signatories.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by jombl View Post
    A quote from Barack Obama regarding an agreement he signed is not a credible source? Weird.

    And by the way, why even take issue with Obama at all? It was GEman who went completely off the rails with his fantasy interpretation of the agreement Obama negotiated with the NATO signatories.
    There's nothing incongruous with Obama's quote and the written agreement.

  8. #38
    Forum All Star jombl's Avatar
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    It was you that took offense, turned on the sarcasm and started correcting me. How I erred in your eyes is still unknown.

    I never said there was anything in the least bit wrong, indeed all I ever did was quote it in order to correct GEman's obvious misunderstanding of the agreement.

    Where exactly do you take the idea that I found anything at all "incongruous" between Obama's comment and the formal agreement??

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by jombl View Post
    It was you that took offense, turned on the sarcasm and started correcting me. How I erred in your eyes is still unknown.

    I never said there was anything in the least bit wrong, indeed all I ever did was quote it in order to correct GEman's obvious misunderstanding of the agreement.

    Where exactly do you take the idea that I found anything at all "incongruous" between Obama's comment and the formal agreement??
    Simple. The agreement calls for countries to AIM to get to 2%. There's nothing binding about it at all. You were quoting Obama to support your assertion that the agreement "calls for 2%."

    And your assertion that the agreement doesn't carve out how some spending is better than others is wrong as well - as it clearly delineates that member nations should aim to have 20% of their defense budget spent on "major new equipment."

    Apologies for the sarcasm, but after reading several of your posts, it seemed to be the language that you speak. This isn't too "off the rails" for you, is it?

  10. #40
    Forum All Star jombl's Avatar
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    It's totally off the rails. It's near bat**** crazy.

    I quoted Barack Obama, get over it. If you have a bone to pick with him, do so.

    You and I both agree that the Obama agreement, as I said, calls for 2%. "Calls", in this usage, is defined in the dictionary as "to give life to... to bring into action...fig. require, demand". There isn't an inch of difference between the term I used and your synonymous term "aims".

    WTF? I can't believe you're serious. If you want to fight over my use of the word "calls", have at it.
    Last edited by jombl; 06-01-2017 at 05:33 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jombl View Post
    WTF? I can't believe you're serious. If you want to fight over my use of the word "calls", have at it.
    Hello Pot, Mr. Kettle is on the line for you....

  12. #42
    Forum All Star jombl's Avatar
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    Look, I get it, there exists a number of people who don't wish to have their assumptions challenged. And there also exists a number of people who's preferred form of debate is subtle undercutting without substance, as always and everywhere.

    I can also see that the willingness to engage and offer considered debate is at an all time low and is largely gone from our shared public space here. That it's true across the nation, from Congress to colleges, doesn't make it any more palatable.

    Just a thought, but why not reconsider your position if you find that nonsensical or personal attack is your supporting argument? If you can't articulate an intelligent argument within the subject of the debate, perhaps you have no valid argument? Oui?

    I'll leave you and the lynch mob now, feel free to go back again and attack grateful or the next neighbor that dares to offer something other than hate and a pitchfork.
    Last edited by jombl; 06-01-2017 at 09:37 PM.

  13. #43
    Without substance? I used a primary source. They teach that around here, I hope...

    Trying to figure out where you're getting "personally attacked."

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